Imam Reza University, Mashhad, Iran - October 2012

Further Details will be announced soon.

Known worldwide as an early pioneer of the nascent discipline of Translation Studies, our friend and colleague, Professor Newmark, has died aged 95 in his home town of Guildford. ‘Passions’ and ‘commitments’ are a common and often weakened currency in the language of the 21st century. Not so for Peter. He was truly passionate about and committed to the learning and teaching of modern languages, was vehemently opposed to restrictive changes in government policy, and dedicated his time, expertise and energies to his beloved Institute of Linguists.

For Peter, life was a matter of absolutes: truth, family, friendship, literature, music, Palestine, ethics, good translation and bad translation. In a valueless (as Peter saw it) post-modernist world, this got him into trouble in many ways and on many occasions, but it also won him friends and admirers.

In the early 1980s, Peter was a true friend to the newly born Centre for Translation Studies at Surrey, founded in the aftermath of the Thatcher government’s university cuts by Nigel Reeves and our friend and colleague Gunilla Anderman, whose own death in 2007 greatly affected Peter until the end.

Peter continued to teach and lecture in the Centre during the following decades. His final lecture at Surrey was given only two years ago to a packed room, full of students eager to see and hear the man whose books and publications they had read and learnt from.

I shared many jokes with Peter about social class, disagreed with him about corpus linguistics and lexicography, and indulged in many a welcome glass of wine. Peter’s roots were firmly planted in a close family life. Our thoughts are with Pauline, Liz and Matt.

I will miss Peter, as will not only my colleagues but also our future generations of students, whom he would have loved to go on teaching.

The funeral is for close family only. A memorial will be held for Peter on 17th October in the Guildford Guildhall. No more details at present.

Margaret Rogers
12th July 2011

Centre for Translation Studies
University of Surrey
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/translation/
Tel.: + 44 (0)1483 682832
Fax.: +44 (0) 1483 689505

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An idle question? Not really.

I’m just back from ASTTI’s excellent summer school for financial translators in Spiez (Switzerland). ASTTI organizes this three-day cpd event every odd year; the SFT does it in even years. Three days of very very stimulating input on a challenging environment including the very exciting employment prospects that await translators prepared to roll up their sleeves and invest the time and effort to get their heads around the issues (both content and style).

As luck would have it, I’m also winding up admin for a writing workshop for translators first held in 2009 (to, ah-hem, rave reviews) that will take place on Aug. 12-14 in the Catskill Mountains north of New York (www.translateinthecatskills.com). Again: a real buzz of networking and hands-on honing of skills in a group of translators targeting the premium end of the market — which *does exist*. Which is actually flourishing.

In both cases, academics and students had/have been urged to attend (including offers to waive the registration fee). Yet in Spiez the only academics on hand were professional translators who occasionally teach on university courses. There were no full-time, tenured academics at all. (I asked the question in a plenary session). How disappointing! Likewise for the Catskills: registrations to date show no academics or students at all.

As some of you know, I am also indirectly involved in the EC’s Optimale program as an outside adviser. In that capacity, but also through my work with a number of professional associations for translators, I’m in touch with quite a number of academics who go on and on (and on) about the poor pay, no respect, glum career prospects that await their students.

And yet here are at least two professional events where participants are very clearly on the opposite wave length. (I’m sure there are many others: the SAM (medical translation) in Lyon, for example.)

My Q du jour: why do we (professional translators) virtually never see any academics at such events? Wouldn’t this be a good way for you guys to get a handle on the very positive market segments you might be (should be?) training your students for? Is it that these events are in summer, and that is not a good time for you (?). Is it that the themes look technical and scary? (er… writing?) Is it that you’ve used up all your travel allowances/time off attending events focusing solely on… er… academic issues? Even if you were only (only!) seeking internships with successful translators to get your students off to a good start, wouldn’t these be the places to go?

I’m genuinely curious why there seems to be zero interest among academics in attending real live upbeat cpd events for translators, even as many complain about the market in which their students will have to find their feet. And in so doing, give their students the wrong attitude from the git-go. (There, I’ve said it.)

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Good question, Chris.

Some possible reasons:

1. Academics work in institutions that do train people in these things, and much else (along with attempts at genuine education).

2. Training in academic institutions is relatively cheap (in continental Europe) – why pay more to do it in a parallel universe? In fact, many of us naively believe that knowledge and skills should be freely available to all, and some of us put a lot of knowledge and training on the web, for free.

3. (European) academic institutions promote a training discourse that is relatively independent from unabashed self-promotion and commercial motivation, thanks to the institutional ethics of liberal humanism.

4. The ethics of the same liberal humanism, along with a growing empirical attitude, usually means that academics are allowed to tell students: “I don’t really know, so let’s find out together…”. This is much more difficult to say in the market place, where gurus are supposed to know everything and thus simply transfer wisdom.

5. Your presumption of academic blindness to market segmentation is merely anecdotal, I’m afraid. So is your apparent presumption that all academics who work on translation have never translated professionally – most of us have, and do.

Hope this helps.

Best

Anthony Pym

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Dear Chris (and Anthony),

If I may, I’d like to add a little input to this very interesting conversation.

Chris, you said: “Yet in Spiez the only academics on hand were professional translators who occasionally teach on university courses. There were no full-time, tenured academics at all.”

I think there is an element of truth here which went relatively unnoticed: in our PG programmes (and I know at many other UK – at least – universities also), the people who teach the specialist translation modules, such as business/economics translation, are in fact not full-time academics but rather full-time professional translators who take a small part of their time off their ‘real’ job in order to teach. Given the modular nature of a lot of the programmes out there, although it would be an advantage for all academics to have a real in-depth knowledge of the industry, this is not always feasible, or even required, if you take into account the fact that students can eventually complement their training with input from many diverse sources in the same programme rather than a single academic who ‘knows it all’. As Anthony said, most academics have translated professionally and perhaps still do (time allowing). Does that mean they have an in-depth knowledge of the industry? Perhaps they don’t. Does that mean they need to have an in-depth knowledge of the industry? For academic purposes, again perhaps they don’t. At the end of the day, and looking at it from the academic/training point of view, this lack of in-depth knowledge is most often compensated for.

Is this the only reason you will not see many academics in such courses? Personally, I don’t think so. However, it might be worth looking at the flipside of the coin as well, in order to gauge exactly what’s happening. How many professional translators or translation company owners/managers attend conferences of a more academic nature? My own experience says ‘very few’. Wouldn’t it be interesting for them to know what’s happening in academia generally, how training courses are evolving (and the quality of the graduates they will eventually employ is changing) and how research can help them individually or as a company evolve professionally?

There is some observable ‘segregation’ in the translation world, it has always been there, I guess. Those who denounce it, either as academics who take on professional training courses or as professional translators who engage actively with academia, are usually ahead of the game, one way or another – exactly because they gain from both worlds. Those who don’t, still have their reasons for not doing it. And life goes on!

I’ve neglected to mention students here. Using the examples of the two courses that were mentioned, let me ask: how many students, undergraduate or postgraduate, could really afford travel, accommodation and subsistence for a three-/four-day course like this, unless they were actually already locals? Again I’m just guessing, but I think very few… Perhaps when they are in a position to pay for their own bills through their work they would, but at this stage of their nascent professional life the cost of something like this would be too much to bear, especially if they are already paying significant amounts of money for fees and accommodation at their institutions.

Chris, you also said:

“As some of you know, I am also indirectly involved in the EC’s Optimale program as an outside adviser. In that capacity, but also through my work with a number of professional associations for translators, I’m in touch with quite a number of academics who go on and on (and on) about the poor pay, no respect, glum career prospects that await their students.”

Is it truly just the academics ‘who go on and on (and on)’ about these unfortunate truths? For one thing, why would they want to undermine the professional prospects of their students by essentially telling them that it’s not worth pursuing translation? And, if they are not professionally involved themselves (as we inferred earlier), how would they know there is ‘poor pay, no respect, glum career prospects’? I can think of a number of professional translators’ forums, mostly on-line (and I think I don’t need to name names here), but also in the contexts of professional associations in various countries, where members will openly discuss the adverse conditions in the industry, in many language pairs. That is not to say that all professional translators are facing difficult conditions and they can’t make a decent living. However, the top end of the market (any market) should not necessarily be seen as representative of the whole market. As a teacher myself, I have to be pragmatic with my students: I will tell them what they should be aiming for (top end), I will tell them how things are at the bottom end (poor pay, little respect) and I will hopefully be able to inspire enough of them to pursue with enough strength and motivation that they will eventually become good professionals. I hope that at the end of the day they will not join the many other professional translators who are indeed complaining about what they get for their work. (Whether that is their own doing or not is another long story…!)

I have just realised what I intended to be ‘a little input’ turned out to be a rather long-winded affair – my apologies. Thank you for your patience.

Best wishes,

Vassilis Korkas

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I hate to say it but I will probably be the least combative one today.

Right from the start, I should declasre my glaring conflict of interest. I am a part-time PhD student (looking to go full-time) and I translate and interpret when not studying. I am also sit on the council of ITI here in the UK. We also currently have two T&I teachers on Council, one of whom has a PhD so we kind of buck the trend.

Anyway, my view is fairly simple. There are several reasons why academics and full-time professionals don’t always mix.

1) Purely selfishly speaking, their main reason for attending conferences are different. For academics, only presentations at academic conference hold any prestige when it comes to raises and promotions. For translators, it is quite unlikely that attending a pure research conference will offer as many useful hints and tips as say, ITI conference or a Masterclass. Also, I would imagine it would be easier for (most) academics to get funding for research confs for the same reasons as above.

2) It is sadly rare that T&I academics are asked to speak at professional conferences/worshops and vice-versa. It is very easy for either “side” (I actually don’t think the lines are as sharp as they firsat appear) to get a silo mentality and only concern itself with whatever is going on in their own world.

3) For communication specialists, we are awfully poor at speaking each others’ languages. As someone who tries hard to straddle the border and be “bicultural,” I must admit that it can take me some effort to explain to fellow professionals why on earth I chose to do a PhD. Thankfully, I have not had much trouble in the other direction due to where I am studying and since I am doing something really practical.

To be honest, I wouldn’t say it was anyone’s fault or, at least, it is the fault of both sides. I would, however, like to suggest a positive idea rather than more discussion. I am sure we have all read Chesterman and Wagner’s book, what if someone were to specially organise a conference whose purpose was to bring both sides together around a theme of mutual interest.

A theme like “From Novice to Expert: Smoothing the Transition between Degrees and CPD” would be attractive, I think. This would allow practical and theoretical sessions and would also provide a space for us to discuss how we can learn from each other. Personally, I would be happy to help organise it.

Jonathan Downie

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Dear all,

As a young TS scholar, I am not able to attend such summer schools or certicifation programs although I am really eager to learn what types of training are offered to professional translators in the industry. The reason is the lack of financial support offered by the academic institution that I am a member of.

When research assistants are concerned, our faculty (Faculty of Letters at Istanbul University, Turkey) only pays for one academic visit to a foreign country. And you should feel really lucky if they pay for the whole amount of your flight ticket. Therefore, most of your expenses will be self-funded. Also if you want the institution to support you financially, you should present a paper. No financial support if you attend the conference as a listener.

I don’t have much knowledge about the case at the other state universities in Turkey; however, it is most probably more or less the same.

Regards,

Sinem Canım

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Hello everyone,

Sorry to jump in and clog mailboxes, but I too think the discussion is interesting and I think Chris has a point.

ATA for instance has a session series for research during their annual meeting. It may not be the most popular session but it is a good opportunity to bridge that gap. And FIT as well I think although haven’t attended that.

I have been wondering why AIIC don’t do the same during their assembly, but admittedly they don’t have many sessions that are not directly linked to associative matters (whereas ATA has vocational training sessions etc).

As an interpreter/teacher/interpreter researcher (well soon fully fledged…) I don’t think I have so far come across any vocational training opportunities/professional conferences with research sessions, researchers invited. But I may be too young in the profession so please enlighten me.

I don’t know about other countries but researchers in the Nordic countries has a “third mission” written into their job description (other than

researching (1st) and teaching university students(2nd)). The third mission is about conveying your research to a broader public. To me, the most important part of that broader public must be the professional practicians.

Best,

Elisabet Tiselius

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Thanks for that thoughtful input, Vassilis.

I’m on press review duty for a client this week and have only just finished my day, so a real response will have to wait for tomorrow.

I have, however, tallied up the number of students I see each year — about 520 (through training days organized by professional associations and also requests for info fed to me by professional associations). This has been the case for well over ten years now.

Oh, and for those who worry about rampant “commercial motivation,” virtually all of this is of course unpaid; it’s a union thing. But I’m sure many academics deal with far more students than that! What concerns me is that the overwhelming majority of these students (let’s say… 500?) are totally adrift when it comes to entering the working world. They have only the vaguest idea about the importance of developing a specialization, and certainly no notion of how to set things in motion (hint: internships are probably the most important move they can make). So clearly whoever was going to join hands with them in “I don’t really know, so let’s find out together…” mode *in this particular (essential?) area* is either asleep at the wheel or bullshitting (just joking, Anthony). What prompted my initial post was frustration arising from a flurry of situations in which professionals — sound professionals; serious translators who invest a lot of time to raise standards and pull everyone up — were not only taking the time to keep their own skills up to scratch but also reaching out to academics and students. Only to find there was nobody there. Or nobody with time and motivation. Worse: these specialized training events are abuzz with energy and excitement; the work comes alive, the intellectual networks are consolidated. It seems such a pity to have the (free) places reserved for academics go begging.

Last but not least, I take your point about tight budgets all around, but that didn’t really surface in Anthony’s arguments (fine and noble all — truly). Guess I’m more attuned to points made by, e.g., Brian Mossop in an earlier discussion about how there simply isn’t enough time on many courses to do everything you’d like, or include all the modules that would be useful. How true. So some of that has to come once students are out in the real world. That’s life.

Next instalment tomorrow. (curious how my short message has, like yours, ballooned!)

Christine Durban

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Dear Chris,

I am following the debate with interest, as it’s something we think about a lot at our institution. I have looked for details of funded places for Translate in the Catskills and was not able to find them – perhaps, if this is still a possibility, you could resend details? I would like to publicise this.

Best,

Carol Osullivan

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Hi Carol,

The info on was in our first few mailings, and now appears in the registration form that you can download from the website. “Limited financial aid for the full seminar is available (for more information, contact translateinthecatskills@gmail.com)” Ah! (slaps forehead) tucking it away like that explains the dearth of academics and students!

Seriously, by all means circulate to anyone you think might be interested: The program, etc., is on the website (translateinthecatskills.com). As stated earlier, at this point aid = waiver of the registration fee for qualified candidates. Breakfast & lunch are provided, but people have to get themselves there under their own steam. See website for carpooling, room-sharing, etc.

Best,

Christine Durban

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A weekend is good for digesting and pondering. So here I am, back with a few more questions.

@Vassilis: Thanks for that very timely reminder that in some cases professionals specializing in business translation (or other specialisms) teach on university courses.

Q: do they themselves attend specialized training events, and bring knowledge gleaned there back to your students? If so, one thing I hope they get across is the importance of lining up the right internships, which can make all the difference to a young translator’s career by opening doors further down the road. (Just as getting the right adviser and research topic can make or break a young translation studies scholar’s career, I’m sure.)

You questioned whether students would be able to afford a specialized course, which got me checking some figures: at the SFT summer school in Luxembourg, students (and academics!) for whom the organizers waived the registration fee could put up at the (excellent) city-center youth hostel for under EUR 25 a night; that info was on the registration form. Breakfast and copious lunch were included in the (waived) registration fee. Transport? Hey, get going early enough and it’s do-able.

My point is that dismissing out of hand essential cpd and networking events on grounds of “no doubt too expensive” is feeding the short-term approach that sandbags so many translators’ careers: if you don’t invest to keep your knowledge current and build a network, chances are you’re going to be stuck at the bottom end of the market.

So here’s a suggestion (to you and to me): let students know about such events well in advance so they can start saving (even a year or two ahead), or at least thinking about the fact that if they plan to be translators, they must have a business plan that includes provision for cpd once they get out into the real world.

Last but not least, it’s not just academics who moan about lack of respect/pay for translators. Far too much moaning and groaning all around!

@Jonathan: on your first point — yes indeed. At this end, I’m only too aware that professional translators on a cpd course get impatient if they don’t get at least a half-dozen vocab issues straightened out before noon each day; you may then have to nail their feet to the floor for presentations on the big picture stuff that will allow them to get beneath the surface. That’s people. That’s life.

And yet… the other day I was at an academic conference where so many speakers were booked per slot that there was zero time for discussion and the thing ran 75 minutes over even then; most speakers rattled through, reading incredibly dense papers they’d written for the proceedings (man, I look forward to reading those proceedings). I missed the discussion that you get in a masterclass-type atmosphere.

I’m also glad you mentioned Chesterman & Wagner’s book, and like you am absolutely certain that everyone on this list has read it. (Can Theory Help Translators? A Dialogue Between the Ivory Tower and the Wordface ; 1-900650-49-5)

@Sinem: Interesting to hear that. You have me wondering if scenario you describe — present-a-paper-and-we’ll-pay-some-of-your-way — doesn’t explain the traffic jam of speakers at the conf I mentioned above.

@Anthony: Are these your personal convictions, or simply arguments you’ve heard in the course of your work? Something tells me the latter — “the marketplace = crass, commercial” being a throwaway argument par excellence. Not to mention “the market place, [is] where gurus are

supposed to know everything and thus simply transfer wisdom.” (I love it! )

As I explained to Vassilis, in my initial message I was above all feeling frustrated that there are opportunities out there and… no one (or very few people) taking advantage of them. We agree that professional translators who don’t keep their knowledge up to speed lose their edge very quickly (and I’m not talking about technology here). I would have thought that university experts who stand up in front of rooms of students to “train” them in same (which is, I gather, different from “genuine education,” presumably because it is “vocational”) would also benefit from seeing which skills and what kinds of knowledge are sought or considered important by clients and professional translators who deal with these subjects on a daily basis. (Call me a control freak, but if I were asked to teach a module on financial, legal or medical translation, I would certainly welcome such exposure.). I’d go farther and say that such interaction in very technical subjects is intellectually stimulating. Enjoyable. Unsettling in a good way.

Vassilis’ point about external talent being brought in for some courses is a good one, but my own (direct) experience is that quite a few universities (OK, OK, surely not yours!) run modules on “business” or “financial” or “medical” and other types of specialized translation that are taught by tenured academics who do not have direct experience of these areas. Which can lead to some seriously misguided stuff (e.g., instructors recommending that students make Proz.com their first port of call for technical vocabulary). I always ask students I’m in touch with for examples of what they are doing in class (including teacher feedback). The results are unsettling in a bad way:  it’s clear that many instructors are at best treading water. That’s a pity, when there are opportunities to keep abreast of developments (or even better: understand issues being addressed). So that was my point. Sorry if I seemed to be sniping.

I think Jonathan has got it right here: The “Total Divide (and By the Way, My Side Is Right)” construction is neither accurate nor particularly helpful to anybody (see below). The point is to get information circulating better, and I hope this discussion does that.

@Elisabet: One of the most interesting research projects I’ve seen recently was by Rosie Wells at ETI. I’ve already mentioned it, I think: she used various tools to crunch numbers and analyze the use of pronouns in annual reports written directly in English vs use of pronouns in translations of annual reports. Excellent and compelling results — a reminder to professional translators that virtually all had let themselves get sucked into third-person reporting (as in French and possibly German), rather than go with first person usage as is natural in English.

So I agree that research has a lot to offer professionals — some of it, anyway. And opportunities to exchange ideas are always very welcome.

Chris Durban

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On a rather personal note, when I go to this kind of events and tell the participants I’m tenured and I train legal translators… I rather stress my professional experience. It’s easier to make friends. However, I just realized I’m contributing to the topic… My bad. Sorry!

Esther Monzó

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I completely support Anthony’s comments.

There is no separation between academic world and real world. In fact they are interconnected and nurture each other in a mutually beneficial relationship.

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> I rather stress my

> professional experience. It’s easier to make friends.

Very good! (I’ll look for you at the next Horizon Justice Française, Esther )

Chris Durban

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Indeed. Cpd goes well beyond localization conferences (thank goddess). The professional events I’m thinking of don’t even have exhibit areas, imagine that.

Chris Durban

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I must admit I was thinking more about why I don’t attend localization conferences (sorry, “networking events”).

Best

Anthony Pym

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IPCITI in October this year in Edinburgh is a good chance to see what the current crop of young T&I researchers are up to.

Jonathan Downie

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My personal thanks go to Chris Durban for initiating this interesting conversation.

1. UCLA Stat Computing: http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/spss/output/factor1.htm
2. Factor Analysis Using SPSS by Andy Field: http://www.statisticshell.com/factor.pdf

N.B. Click here for guidelines on interpreting CFA results.

Dr. Mohammad Javad Gohari is a graduate of Imam Sadeq University, Iran and Leeds University, UK. He is currently a lecturer at Oxford University.

I simply would like to remind that though Khayyam owes his fame to Fitzgerald (and no other soul), after a critical study of the translation of his Rubaiat (quatrains) by Edward Fitzgerald, one realizes that ‘the Khayyam’ introduced by Fitzgerald in the West barely resembles the one who dear Mr. Arzhan knows of. For those interested, it is recommended to read a study (Farahzad, 2006) on appropriation and domestication strategies in translation of his work which resulted in creation of a new (distorted and different) image of Khayyam outside Persian language.

Farahzad, F. (2006). Strategies of Appropriation: Khayyam and Rumi. Translation Studies: (Iranian) Scientific Research Quarterly, 4(15), 44-52.